बडा कौन???

pps309

Prime VIP
They were Avatars.

Just like 10 Patshahi was Incarnation of Dusht Daman,
Ram, krishan were avatars of Vishnu.

Akal Purak asked Dusht Daman to re-born as a human and create panth.
He did that but he also grew old, got injured and eventually died.

So was Yamraj stronger than him ? No, its bit complicated than that.

FYI:

In Dasam Granth, there is no mention of Guru Gobind Singh that I can find referring to himself as Dusht Damun. The panktis about Dasmeh Pita's previous incarnation, during which Guru ji meditated on Hemkunt, can be found here (page 132):
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

On the contrary he said: "main hun param purakh ka dasa, dekhan aaya jagat tamasha".

Back to original post:
According to your post, RamChander ji was same like Guru Gobind Singh (some incarnations sent by God to help the world). So you mean to say RamChander Ji or Krishan Ji is no God?
 

Dhillon

Dhillon Sa'aB™
Staff member
Sikh scholars have made the connection as 'Dusht Daman' is mentioned else where in DG and the similarities between him and previous incarnation of Guru.

And he also mentioned that Ram was his ancestor.

I won't argue over the Godhood of Ram and Krishan, but this is what Guru ji said about Ram Katha---

Ram katha jug jug atal
Sab koi bhakhat net Suragbas Raghuver kara
Sagri puri samet Jo en Katha sune aur gaave
Dukh pap tah nikat na aave
~ Guru Govind Singh

(The story of Ram is immortal and everyone should read it. Ram went to heaven along with the whole city. Whoever listens to or sings His story, will be free of sin and sorrow.)
 

pps309

Prime VIP
Sikh scholars have made the connection as 'Dusht Daman' is mentioned else where in DG and the similarities between him and previous incarnation of Guru.

And he also mentioned that Ram was his ancestor.

I won't argue over the Godhood of Ram and Krishan, but this is what Guru ji said about Ram Katha---

AFAIK, in whole DG there is no dusht daman............
Dusht Daman story is mixed with Guru Sahib's story in "SurajParkash" composed in 1843 (135 years after Guru Gobind Singh went to holy abode). It was again edited by Bhai Vir Singh in 1923-24, then again edited by SGPC..........
SurajParkash book is not Gurbani.

coming back to Ramaavtar........Guru Sahib wrote avtar katha of 24 avtars and one of them is Ramavatr. Dhillon Sahab you again giving only half refernces.........Quote which you gave is one chhand of Ramaavatr..........at the end of this, Guru Sahib put a note in form of dohra.....i guess you forgot to read that......here it goes.... (I do read both of these Saloks in Sodar Rehras Sahib every day)
ਸਾਧ ਅਸਾਧ ਜਾਨੋ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਦ ਸੁਬਾਦ ਬਿਬਾਦਿ ॥
ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਕਲ ਪੂਰਣ ਕੀਯੋ ਭਗਵਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥੮੬੨॥
"It is difficult to decide who was a saint and who was not; it is a contentious issue. My job was to complete this epic with the grace of God – which I have done."
(ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਰਾਮਾਵਤਾਰ)

The Ramavtar ends with the cantos which forms a part of the daily prayer of the Sikhs and declare unequivocally that after I have come to the feet of the Lord I will not even look to any one else. Rama, Rahim, Puranas, Quran all give different versions of God, but I shall heed none.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਯੋ ॥
ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥
ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨ ਕਿ੍ਰਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਿਰ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥੮੬੩॥
(ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਰਾਮਾਵਤਾਰ)

It is because of teachings of Guru Sahib, I raised suspicion over the Godhood of RamChader ji, Krishan ji. Its fine if you do not want to discuss or it hurts anyone. even I am not interested. My mind is clear without any duality.
 

Dhillon

Dhillon Sa'aB™
Staff member
I think its the chapter where devi asked some rishi for help and he created a warrior.
After the warrior had killed all demons, rishi told him to do penance at Hemkunt.

Still If the name was not Dusht Daman but something else what difference does it make ?
 

pps309

Prime VIP
Why Guru Sahib wrote avtar kathas? Was it to pray to these Avatars?

No it was not to pray to these avatars, or to prove their existence. SGGS uses their references in its Shabad (for ex: ram gayo ravan gayo, sonne ki lanka etc). So Guru Sahib literally wrote the whole avtar katha AS-IT-IS.....without any changes so that his followers can understand about their references made in SGGS.

since Guru Sahib wrote them AS-IT-IS, so in the end he added note (quoted in above post)
 

Dhillon

Dhillon Sa'aB™
Staff member
But he also said Ram was the ancestors of Sodhi clan. So Guru Ji approved the existence.
 

pps309

Prime VIP
I think its the chapter where devi asked some rishi for help and he created a warrior.
After the warrior had killed all demons, rishi told him to do penance at Hemkunt.

Still If the name was not Dusht Daman but something else what difference does it make ?

although you are mixing many sources and putting a story which is wrongly interpreted by some authors, still going by your logic....RamChander ji was same like Guru Gobind Singh (some incarnations sent by God to help the world). So you mean to say RamChander Ji or Krishan Ji is no God?

If they are not God, then they are not bada......this solves the question mark title of this thread बडा कौन???
 

pps309

Prime VIP
bachittar natak, start from the beginning.
Bachittar Natak Starts with Dohra, then Kal Ustat, then Akal Ustat, then Atam Katha, then the Natak (drama composed and written by Patshahi 10, no where author claimed it to be autobiography).
Which lines, from what part are you mentioning? If these are lines from drama part then just forget it..........Drama is fictious.

this is begining of bachittar natak.................I couldn't find it.

ਮੁਖ ਭਾਗ 3
मुख भाग 3
CHAPTER 3

ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ
बचित्र नाटक
NAME OF THE BANI.

ਭਾਗ
भाग
SECTION

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
The Lord is One and He can be attained through the grace of the true Guru.

ਅਥ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਲਿਖਯਤੇ ॥
अथ बचित्र नाटक ग्रंथ लिखयते ॥
Now the Granth (Book) entitled `BACHITTAR NATAK` is composed.

ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
त्वप्रसादि ॥
BY THY GRACE.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਬਾਕ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥
स्री मुखबाक पातशाही १०॥
From the Holy Mouth of the Tenth King (Guru)

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਖੜਗ ਕੋ ਕਰੋਂ ਸੁ ਹਿਤੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥
नमसकार स्री खड़ग को करों सु हितु चितु लाइ ॥
I salute the Glorious SWORD with all my heart`s affection.

ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰੋਂ ਗਰੰਥ ਇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧॥
पूरन करों गरंथ इहु तुम मुहि करहु सहाइ ॥१॥
I shall complete this Granth only if Thou Helpest me. I.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭੰਗੀ ਛੰਦ ॥
त्रिभंगी छंद ॥
TRIBHAGI STANZA

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਾਲ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ॥
स्री काल जी की उसतति ॥
The Eulogy of the Revered Death (KAL).

ਖਗ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਹੰਡੰ ਖਲ ਦਲ ਖੰਡੰ ਅਤਿ ਰਣ ਮੰਡੰ ਬਰ ਬੰਡੰ ॥
खग खंड बिहंडं खल दल खंडं अति रण मंडं बर बंडं ॥
The sword chops well, chops the forces of fools and this mighty one bedecks and glorifies the battlefield.

ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡ ਅਖੰਡੰ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਮੰਡੰ ਭਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ॥
भुज दंड अखंडं तेज प्रचंडं जोति अमंडं भान प्रभं ॥
It is the unbreakable staff of the arm, it has the powerful luster and its light even bedims the radiance of the sum.

ਸੁਖ ਸੰਤਾ ਕਰਣੰ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਰਣੰ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਹਰਣੰ ਅਸਿ ਸਰਣੰ ॥
सुख संता करणं दुरमति दरणं किलबिख हरणं असि सरणं ॥
It brings happiness to the saints, mashing the vicious ones, it is the destroyer of sins and I and under its refuge.

ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜਗ ਕਾਰਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਬਾਰਣ ਮਮ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰਣ ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ ॥੨॥
जै जै जग कारण स्रिसटि उबारण मम प्रतिपारण जै तेगं ॥२॥
Hail, hail to the cause of the world, saviour of the universe, it is my preserver, I hail its victory. 2.

ਭੁਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥
भुजंग प्रयात छंद ॥
BHUJANG PRAYAAT STANZA

ਸਦਾ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਯੰ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸਰੂਪੰ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵੰ ਮਹਾ ਭੂਪ ਭੂਪੰ ॥
सदा एक जोतयं अजूनी सरूपं ॥ महा देव देवं महा भूप भूपं ॥
He, who is ever light-incarnate and birthless entity, Who is the god of chief gods, the king of chief kings.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਿਤਯੰ ਨਿਰੂਪੰ ਨ੍ਰਿਬਾਣੰ ॥ ਕਲੰ ਕਾਰਣੇਯੰ ਨਮੋ ਖੜਗਪਾਣੰ ॥੩॥
निरंकार नितयं निरूपं न्रिबाणं ॥ कलं कारणेयं नमो खड़गपाणं ॥३॥
Who is Formless, Eternal, Amorphous and Ultimate Bliss. Who is the Cause of all the Powers, I salute the wielder of the Sword.3.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨ੍ਰਿਬਿਕਾਰ ਨਿਤਯੰ ਨਿਰਾਲੰ ॥ ਨ ਬ੍ਰਿਧੰ ਬਿਸੇਖੰ ਨ ਤਰੁਨੰ ਨ ਬਾਲੰ ॥
निरंकार न्रिबिकार नितयं निरालं ॥ न ब्रिधं बिसेखं न तरुनं न बालं ॥
He is Formless, Flawless, eternal and Non-aligned. He is neither distinctively old, nor young nor immature.

ਨ ਰੰਕੰ ਨ ਰਾਯੰ ਨ ਰੂਪੰ ਨ ਰੇਖੰ ॥ ਨ ਰੰਗੰ ਨ ਰਾਗੰ ਅਪਾਰੰ ਅਭੇਖੰ ॥੪॥
न रंकं न रायं न रूपं न रेखं ॥ न रंगं न रागं अपारं अभेखं ॥४॥
He is neither poor. nor rich; He is Formless and Markless. He is Colourless, Non-attached, Limitless and Guiseless.4.

ਨ ਰੂਪੰ ਨ ਰੇਖੰ ਨ ਰੰਗੰ ਨ ਰਾਗੰ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮੰ ਨ ਠਾਮੰ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਾਗੰ ॥
न रूपं न रेखं न रंगं न रागं ॥ न नामं न ठामं महा जोति जागं ॥
He is Formless, Signless, Colourless and Non-attached. He is Nameless, Placeless; and a Radiating Great Effulgence.

ਨ ਦ੍ਵੈਖੰ ਨ ਭੇਖੰ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਿਤਯੰ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਜੋਗੰ ਸੁ ਪਰਮੰ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰਯੰ॥੫॥
न द्वैखं न भेखं निरंकार नितयं ॥ महा जोग जोगं सु परमं पवित्रयं॥५॥
He is Blemishless, Guiseless, Formless and Eternal. He is a Superb Practising Yogi and a Supremely Holy Entity.5.

ਅਜੇਯੰ ਅਭੇਯੰ ਅਨਾਮੰ ਅਠਾਮੰ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਜੋਗੰ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਮ ਕਾਮੰ ॥
अजेयं अभेयं अनामं अठामं ॥ महा जोग जोगं महा काम कामं ॥
He is unconquerable, Indistinguishable, Nameless and Placeless. He is a Superb Practicing Yogi, He is the Supreme Ravisher.

ਅਲੇਖੰ ਅਭੇਖੰ ਅਨੀਲੰ ਅਨਾਦੰ ॥ ਪਰੇਯੰ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰੰ ਸਦਾ ਨ੍ਰਿਬਿਖਾਦੰ ॥੬॥
अलेखं अभेखं अनीलं अनादं ॥ परेयं पवित्रं सदा न्रिबिखादं ॥६॥
He is Accountless, Garbless, Stainless and without Beginning. He is in the Yond, Immaculate and ever without Contention.6.

ਸੁਆਦੰ ਅਨਾਦੰ ਅਨੀਲੰ ਅਨੰਤੰ॥ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖੰ ਅਭੇਖੰ ਮਹੇਸੰ ਮਹੰਤੰ ॥
सुआदं अनादं अनीलं अनंतं॥ अद्वैखं अभेखं महेसं महंतं ॥
He is the Primal, Orignless, Stainless and Endless. He is Blemishless, Guiseless, Master of the earth and the destroyer of Pride.
 

Dhillon

Dhillon Sa'aB™
Staff member
Bachittar Natak Starts with Dohra, then Kal Ustat, then Akal Ustat, then Atam Katha, then the Natak (drama composed and written by Patshahi 10, no where author claimed it to be autobiography).
Which lines, from what part are you mentioning? If these are lines from drama part then just forget it..........Drama is fictious.

Start from - 'Ab Main Apni Katha '
 

Dhillon

Dhillon Sa'aB™
Staff member
Why Guru Sahib wrote avtar kathas? Was it to pray to these Avatars?

No it was not to pray to these avatars, or to prove their existence. SGGS uses their references in its Shabad (for ex: ram gayo ravan gayo, sonne ki lanka etc). So Guru Sahib literally wrote the whole avtar katha AS-IT-IS.....without any changes so that his followers can understand about their references made in SGGS.

since Guru Sahib wrote them AS-IT-IS, so in the end he added note (quoted in above post)



These below are not part of any Katha,, just in general praise of God.

DG P 109.

ਨਮੋ ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਪਾਣੰ ॥ ਅਭੂਤੰ ਭਯਾਣੰ ॥
Salutation to Him, Who holds the disc in His hand, He hath manifested Himself without elements.

ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਕੋਟ ਨਿਸਾਚਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਛਿਨੇਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਹਨ ਡਾਰੇ ॥
He, who hath destroyed millions of demons like Sumbh and Nisumbh in and instant.

ਧੂਮਰਲੋਚਨ ਚੰਡ ਔ ਮੁੰਡ ਸੇ ਮਾਹਖ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥
Who hath annihilated in and instant the demons like Dhumarlochan, Chand, Mund and Mahishasura.

ਚਾਮਰ ਸੇ ਰਣ ਚਿੱਛਰ ਸੇ ਰਕਤਿੱਛਣ ਸੇ ਝਟ ਦੈ ਝਝਕਾਰੇ ॥
Who hath immediately thrashed and thrown down far away the demons like Chamar, Ranchichchhar and Rakat Beej.

ਰਾਵਣ ਸੇ ਮਹਰਾਵਣ ਸੇ ਘਟਕਾਨਹੁ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਪਛਾਰੇ ॥
Thou hast destroyed in and instant the warriors like Ravana, Kumbhkarna and Ghatksura.
 

@n@@m

unknown but known to all
you mean, when someone pray by taking name of Raam, he/she is not praying Ramchander ji of Ayodhya but the ultimate supreme being.

you can say that as by the logic of ramayan he was avtar of vishnu ji who according to vaishnav sampraday is name of supreme power. :p
 
ਨਮੋ ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਪਾਣੰ ॥ ਅਭੂਤੰ ਭਯਾਣੰ ॥
Salutation to Him, Who holds the disc in His hand, He hath manifested Himself without elements.

ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਕੋਟ ਨਿਸਾਚਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਛਿਨੇਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਹਨ ਡਾਰੇ ॥
He, who hath destroyed millions of demons like Sumbh and Nisumbh in and instant.

ਧੂਮਰਲੋਚਨ ਚੰਡ ਔ ਮੁੰਡ ਸੇ ਮਾਹਖ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥
Who hath annihilated in and instant the demons like Dhumarlochan, Chand, Mund and Mahishasura.

ਚਾਮਰ ਸੇ ਰਣ ਚਿੱਛਰ ਸੇ ਰਕਤਿੱਛਣ ਸੇ ਝਟ ਦੈ ਝਝਕਾਰੇ ॥
Who hath immediately thrashed and thrown down far away the demons like Chamar, Ranchichchhar and Rakat Beej.

ਰਾਵਣ ਸੇ ਮਹਰਾਵਣ ਸੇ ਘਟਕਾਨਹੁ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਪਛਾਰੇ ॥
Thou hast destroyed in and instant the warriors like Ravana, Kumbhkarna and Ghatksura.
waah kya soch hai??

janab kise bande di majaal ne k oh kise nu maar sake.... maaran wala rabb he aa

baaki janab prehlaad bhagat di story ta tusi jaande he hone..... ohde baapu ne bari kossish kiti bare tarikeya naal ohnu maaran di par oh ne mareya.....kyn ki rabb di marji ne c

"aap upawanhaar aape he maarda"

tusi ta janab eh sidh karta ke jo RSS ne keha c indra nu k sikha da ik ajeha granth aa jisde arth appa hindu dharam mutbak kar sakde aa oh bilkul sahi keha c. 1428 panneya de granth cho 5 lines suna ke tusi kise v anjaan sikh nu eh veham pa sakde aa k guru sahib ne eh kis di tareef kiti ae
 

userid114437

Well-known member
Yamraj, dharam rai hunda eh koi hor aa. Kio k Gurbani cha dharam rai da zikar bahut aunda taan thoda doubt jeha aa
 

userid114437

Well-known member
Je same aa fer taan labh pea vadda kaun aa lol.


""Dharam rai hai har ka kia har jan sewak ned na ave||""

""Dharam rai no hukam hai beh sacha dharam vichar||""

Soo yamraj vishnu mahesh krishan toon vadda ho sakda par "AKAL PURAKH" toon nai. Eh v vichara hukam vich aa.
Nale meinu bharma vishnu mahesh bhagwan v nai lagde kio k eh v "haume rogi" a sade vangu. Gurumahraj farmaunde aa


""Bharma bishan mahadeo trae gun rogi vich haume kar kamai||
Jin kiye tishe na chete bapude har gurmukh sojhi payi||""


Gurumahraj ne taan ehna nu sade varge murakh dasea.
 

@n@@m

unknown but known to all
Je same aa fer taan labh pea vadda kaun aa lol.


""Dharam rai ab kaha karego jo fateo saglo lekha||""

""Dharam rai hai har ka kia har jan sewak ned na ave||""

""Dharam rai no hukam hai beh sacha dharam vichar||""

Soo yamraj vishnu mahesh krishan toon vadda ho sakda par "AKAL PURAKH" toon nai. Eh v vichara hukam vich aa.
Nale meinu bharma vishnu mahesh bhagwan v nai lagde kio k eh v "haume rogi" a sade vangu. Gurumahraj farmaunde aa


""Bharma bishan mahadeo trae gun rogi vich haume kar kamai||
Jin kiye tishe na chete bapude har gurmukh sojhi payi||""


Gurumahraj ne taan ehna nu sade varge murakh dasea.
kindly read all the replies in the thread .:tj
 
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