Mr Dhillon

[Ramta]

Mr Dhillon,

If you read my views carefully, there is no incitement; there is no glorification or support of violence or hatred of any kind (unlike several Akli Neo-Sikh preacheres that glorify Khalistani terrorists who used to gun down dozens of civilians on a daily basis).

I am just exposing the various myths that are propagated by neo-Sikhs of today. These myths, which unfortuately often form the basis of a young British and Canadian Sikhs upbringing, are erroneous, bloat their egos and promote hatred towards Hindus and and thus India. The myths are created and propagated for political purposes, and many Sikhs have fallen a victim to them. I hope my views will help liberate some minds.

One need not take offence, but rather consider what is being said. I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things I don't agree with. The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique. What I say serves to give the other side of the story, and its contents should be used to counter the silly myths some of todays Western Sikhs have created, and labour under. Sikh in India need to learn to counter these myths when they are encountered because most neo-Sikh myths, even though they are aimed at Hindus, harm the Sikh most.

The reason why I raise questions regarding certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself. Those who believe criticism is a negative thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong, criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES. If the Guru's were around, believe me, I would question them till my last breadth.

Thanks

Forumiites,
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]I’m not out to ruin your faith (lol), I have serious questions that need to be addressed (you have to understand that your world, your friends, your social influences are different from mine – Im not an anti-Sikh, I am just posting questions that my peers and myself are developing to become better Sikhs, or in that context remain Sikhs, lol).[/FONT]

Thanks

 

[SherDil™]

Oh yaar meri Bandook kaddo jara smirk

"SaaB" Ji mainu es section da charge deyo jara 2-4 din hune set karda ehnu

 

[dhana_jatt]

Mr Dhillon,

(unlike several Akli Neo-Sikh preacheres that glorify Khalistani terrorists who used to gun down dozens of civilians on a daily basis).

meri gal sun koi maa de tid cho terrorist banke ni jamda.... jina nu tu terrorist keh reha na ohna da past vekhi... ohnu nu majbur kita geya .... nale tu 84 de riots bhul geya oh ni tohanu dikhe... je kisi di ankh nu hath pao ge ta eve hi jawab milna... baki je tu kehna ki tu sikh hai ta main ta ni man sakda.... je sikh honda ta ah jeri bakwas kiti hai tu sikha bare oh na karda.... te ik gal dheyan nal sun..
te tu keh reha main koi anti sikh thread ni bnayae , ta jera oh thread bnaya c zafarwal te ohki c... us ch tu saaf keha ki sikh terrorist ne... jeri sikhi te tu ungal chuk reha na us da ithas vekhi fer pata lagu tenu sikh kon ne... ah rss wargeya de likhi hoyia galla te yakeen karan to pehla kisi gurudware jake granthi nu puchda ya boooks read karda.... te har post ch tera ishara eho c ki sikhism is part of hindus , te ah bilkul wrong ae... sikh wakhri kaum ae...
te stop copy pasting here,... baki sikhi bare kuch v galat bolan to pehla sochli hun....

 

[dhana_jatt]

te jithe tak arhi duje religions di ta main ik gal saaf kehna chahuna ki sikh sare dharma da satkar karde ne te karde rehan ge,.... is da saboot haiu guru granth sahab jis ch sare religions di bani daraj hai.. je asi kisi te religion te ungli ni chakde ta asi seh v ni skade koi sade religion bare bole... so better take care...

 

[Ramta]

Forumiites,

I’m not a RSS agent out to ruin your faith (lol), I have serious questions that need to be addressed (you have to understand that your world, your friends, your social influences are different from mine – im not an anti-Sikh, I am just posting questions that my peers and myself are developing to become better Sikhs, or in that context remain Sikhs, lol). I myself am a Sikh. But criticism is key in my argument and if you can’t cope with that please do not respond. We must challenge faith not only as an institution but also from a unique historical perspective.

I believe the moral principles that the BANI teaches, I can but only try to live life according to its teaching, I acknowledge the magnificent roles the Sikh faith has played in HISTORY and even TODAY, I love much of the teachings of the guru’s but does that mean I must follow everything my guru tells me without questioning it? Religion is being transcended by atheism and humanism you can choose to ignore my question, but that will harm the faith rather that improve it! Rolling back your conservative “whip” is a short term and rather shaky solution. You asked me to focus my attention on God, I’m sorry that’s not the solution; faith is a social process an individual cannot strengthen faith at there own will. Does questioning my religion make me less of a Sikh than yourself.

All things considered I look forward to your response, spare me the suspense!

All I asked is how can one possibly believe that Sikhism that implements a high degree of social control ( the five k’s are but a prime example ) is a liberal system of faith ? We are a faith that believes in many unproven tales that contradicts reason and intellect, a faith that at time provides strong moral development but adds, “insult to reason”. EXAMPLES FURTHER AHEAD!

I will only accept responses from the gurbani itself or from a credible source not something your parents told you as a bedtime story. No shononogan responses that add insult to reason as with my previous post. Like -- “a befitting lesson to those who mess with us”-- WOW I’m not even going to comment on that one! Who do you mean us? In a way I am messing with the “us” do I deserve your conservative whip?

I read with keen interest many responses. You guys really are a diehard bunch of Sikh (I can see and am not shocked). But very few indulged in name calling. Name calling is not really mature and to attack my personal character rather than critiquing my critique is nothing more than a “low blow”. I take great offense at some of these clown's responses. But rest assured my true intention is not to stir hostility in our faith, I just want people to read this and walk away not only with answers but more questions.

Remember Sikh means learner: that should be our primary objective.

Most of the people who answered my previous blogs had this to say : “...we are not following the principles of the Sikh faith as the Guru's quite intended...” But how does one decide what exactly they intended. More importantly WHO is going to decide...

I am a Sikh and I wish to learn) and so so should you. Sikh mean's Sikshak, student on a quest of knowledge and understanding so as to discard ignorance. But what do we see around us. Are Sikh living upto their name ?? I don't like like it as so would you but it's a truth though a bitter one, that our people are allergic to knowledge, gyaan, vidya, studies...It's true whether we like it or not. Our people run away from education. Said the Great-Master, "This is a Grantha and your very own Grantha". And our people lost their head.

Maade Jatt katori labbi paanee pee pee aaphar gaya.

And now look at them. They carry it on their head, place it under a chatri, fan it so as flies won't sit on it. I thing it would make our community a better Sikh were they to put that granth down from that pedestal they have placed it on. AND READ IT. Do to the Grantha what a Grantha is meant to be done with.

One can't really say whether those who tried to roast me alive are better Sikh than I am. I tell you, you certainly don't want such professors of Sikhi to be the torch-bearers of our faith.

Sikhism is the evolution of Human along with the environment he/she is a part of towards a higher and a better understanding.

Read my questions and give me a fair response and I agree that I will not encourage others to critique the faith, but I will continue to question my faith and perhaps stir some lively debate in these areas.

This is no pompous shows of knowledge ?? these are everyday questions that an average university student would ask him/herself in the back of their minds at the sub-concious level.

And you can use gurbani along with any other source (scholarly), as have I, to caste a response and disregard what I wrote.... Use your own contextual interpretation to prove me wrong.

And please don't get all reved up, remember this is a learning process and if you don't consider life to be a learning process you are not a sikh.

Remember the Sikhs were considered liberal minded “back in the day”, which is why they suffered atrocities as our teachings conflicted with the teachings of the existing Islamic state. If you are a true Sikh retain your liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has become detached from reality (we live in a free country now, there will be no more atrocities). Until we answer these questions and many more similar questions, this faith will continue to be detached from its very own base! If you would like to post responses to these questions above please try to do so without using hostility, even though that is predominately the “Sikh way” (just kiddin).

And are more questions needs raising...

Is not putting up pictures of Bhagat Singh in Guru-dwara's and that too as a Keshdhari an insult to the Guru-dwara as well as to the memory of a great martyr like Bhagat Singhwho was a Marxist and an Athiest? Should not he be respected for what he was and what he stood for, what he believed in till his last breath?

It's not just Bhagat Singh the Akali and Neo-Sikh clowns are messing with. Look at how they treat the Dasam-Granth. Almost as if it doesn't exist. It might not be taken as a religious doctrine coz' Sikhism itself promoted scepticism through it's Guru's but the fact that it was written and that too by the Dasam-Pitaah is reason enough for it to be read. By all who believe in him. Or want to.

There has been considerable controversy surrounding some of the writings attributed to him, with the suggestion being made that they fail to fit into some aspects of the Sikh religion. Macauliffe, a British officer, was mainly responsible for seeding the question, with an effort to separate Sikhs from Hindus.

Now, all the cannons of purchased media are booming against Guru Gobind Singh and his writings and have been even labelled by some as an RSS-Brahminical propaganda. Every-thing Hindu is our enemy they proclaim. Superstitious Hindu... we all cry.

But if we find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay our respect . If some body found some stone at some place and said that these are the stones which one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana, we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and the stones are worshipped . If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a holed Jug we spend loads of money to pay homage.

Now, if some poetic compositions, even if purely literary but definitely seen as Dasam-Guru's work, at some ocassions were collected by Bhai Mani Singh after so many years of the Guru's departure, what is the harm in it ?? Are these worthless than a Jutti and stones ??

I too can challenge these Coffee-shop Sikh of Toronto and London. How can we abuse a Brahamin in the domocratic world . The Brahamana is considered preist by the Hindus. An equivalent of the Granthi. The Vedas contain lot of pronography but none of the Hindus or their shakraacharyas have ever raised the question of pronography and it's removal from Vedas .Let us see when ever such demand is raised how do the Hindu devouts rataliate. And if you ask me... I am sure they will give me all the reason in the world to continue to be proud of whatever I believe in. I am a real Sikh. A Sikh-Hindu. Searching for the truth. Maintaining a distance from those who claim to have found it.

Thanks

 

[dhana_jatt]

Zaffarwal: We Were I.S.I. Puppets
Sikhism
Quotes from the Shri Guru-Granth https://www.unp.me/f15/sikhism-15338/Why I am an Atheist - Bhagat Singh [1907-1931]


in these threads u try to defame our religion... u wrote against it... swal karne hor gal ae... ethe tu jo likheya oh sikha de ult c... te let me make it clear such posts and threads vl not be .welcomed any more...

 

[pps309]

Mr Dhillon,

If you read my views carefully, there is no incitement; there is no glorification or support of violence or hatred of any kind.
YOUR POSTS ARE PATHETIC AND INDIRECTLY IN MOST OF YOUR POSTS YOU ARE BLAMING/DEFAMING SIKH RELIGION. IN NONE OF YOUR POST YOU MENTIONED MILLITANCY IN PUNJAB.

SIMPLY RIDICULUOS
(unlike several Akli Neo-Sikh preacheres that glorify Khalistani terrorists who used to gun down dozens of civilians on a daily basis).
I AGREE TERRORISM IS BAD. GODHRA WAS ALSO BAD. MERRUT RIOTS WAS ALSO BAD. 1984 DELHI RIOTS WAS ALSO BAD.
WHAT HAPPENED WITH MISSIONARY GRAHM WAS ALSO BAD.

I DO NOT BELIEVE LIVING IN PAST BUT IF YOU JUST CHECK THE PAST, ONLY ONE COMMUNITY HAS ISSUES WITH ALL OF OTHER MINORITIES IN INDIA

I am just exposing the various myths that are propagated by neo-Sikhs of today. These myths, which unfortuately often form the basis of a young British and Canadian Sikhs upbringing, are erroneous, bloat their egos and promote hatred towards Hindus and and thus India.
BEFORE YOU CAME ON THIS SITE THEIR WAS NO SIGN OF HATREDNESS AGAINST HINDU RELIGION.
NOW AFTER YOU COMING HERE, I HATE ONE HINDU...whose UNP id is BUlleshah.
The myths are created and propagated for political purposes, and many Sikhs have fallen a victim to them. I hope my views will help liberate some minds.
ARE YOU KNOWLEDGABLE ENUFF TO CRITICISE THEORY BY OUR GURUS OR RELIGION. MIND IT RELIGION IS NOT OWNED BY YOU, WHATEVER YOU TALK OR WRITE CAN HURT A COMMUNITY

One need not take offence, but rather consider what is being said. I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things I don't agree with.
INDIA IS FULL OF CORRPUTED GUYS LIKE YOU WHO CANNOT SEE PEOPLE BELIVING IN SOME FAITH OTHER THAN HINDUISM.
The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique. What I say serves to give the other side of the story, and its contents should be used to counter the silly myths some of todays Western Sikhs have created, and labour under. Sikh in India need to learn to counter these myths when they are encountered because most neo-Sikh myths, even though they are aimed at Hindus, harm the Sikh most.

REFRAIN COMPARING SIKHISM WITH HINDUISM OR STOP JUSTIFYING SIKHS AS PART OF HINDU RELIGION.

The reason why I raise questions regarding certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself. Those who believe criticism is a negative thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong, criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES. If the Guru's were around, believe me, I would question them till my last breadth.

Thanks

Forumiites,
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]I’m not out to ruin your faith (lol), I have serious questions that need to be addressed (you have to understand that your world, your friends, your social influences are different from mine – Im not an anti-Sikh, I am just posting questions that my peers and myself are developing to become better Sikhs, or in that context remain Sikhs, lol).[/FONT]

Thanks

NOW You are saying that you are not trying to defame SIKHISM.
1) You converted Har-Mandar to Hari-Mandir and then to Vishnu-Shiva Mandir.
2) You said in one of your posts that Sikhs are part of Hindu Religion.

 

[pps309]

Forumiites,

I’m not a RSS agent out to ruin your faith (lol), I have serious questions that need to be addressed (you have to understand that your world, your friends, your social influences are different from mine – im not an anti-Sikh, I am just posting questions that my peers and myself are developing to become better Sikhs, or in that context remain Sikhs, lol). I myself am a Sikh. But criticism is key in my argument and if you can’t cope with that please do not respond. We must challenge faith not only as an institution but also from a unique historical perspective.

I believe the moral principles that the BANI teaches, I can but only try to live life according to its teaching, I acknowledge the magnificent roles the Sikh faith has played in HISTORY and even TODAY, I love much of the teachings of the guru’s but does that mean I must follow everything my guru tells me without questioning it? Religion is being transcended by atheism and humanism you can choose to ignore my question, but that will harm the faith rather that improve it! Rolling back your conservative “whip” is a short term and rather shaky solution. You asked me to focus my attention on God, I’m sorry that’s not the solution; faith is a social process an individual cannot strengthen faith at there own will. Does questioning my religion make me less of a Sikh than yourself.

All things considered I look forward to your response, spare me the suspense!

All I asked is how can one possibly believe that Sikhism that implements a high degree of social control ( the five k’s are but a prime example ) is a liberal system of faith ? We are a faith that believes in many unproven tales that contradicts reason and intellect, a faith that at time provides strong moral development but adds, “insult to reason”. EXAMPLES FURTHER AHEAD!

I will only accept responses from the gurbani itself or from a credible source not something your parents told you as a bedtime story. No shononogan responses that add insult to reason as with my previous post. Like -- “a befitting lesson to those who mess with us”-- WOW I’m not even going to comment on that one! Who do you mean us? In a way I am messing with the “us” do I deserve your conservative whip?

I read with keen interest many responses. You guys really are a diehard bunch of Sikh (I can see and am not shocked). But very few indulged in name calling. Name calling is not really mature and to attack my personal character rather than critiquing my critique is nothing more than a “low blow”. I take great offense at some of these clown's responses. But rest assured my true intention is not to stir hostility in our faith, I just want people to read this and walk away not only with answers but more questions.

Remember Sikh means learner: that should be our primary objective.

Most of the people who answered my previous blogs had this to say : “...we are not following the principles of the Sikh faith as the Guru's quite intended...” But how does one decide what exactly they intended. More importantly WHO is going to decide...

I am a Sikh and I wish to learn) and so so should you. Sikh mean's Sikshak, student on a quest of knowledge and understanding so as to discard ignorance. But what do we see around us. Are Sikh living upto their name ?? I don't like like it as so would you but it's a truth though a bitter one, that our people are allergic to knowledge, gyaan, vidya, studies...It's true whether we like it or not. Our people run away from education. Said the Great-Master, "This is a Grantha and your very own Grantha". And our people lost their head.

Maade Jatt katori labbi paanee pee pee aaphar gaya.

And now look at them. They carry it on their head, place it under a chatri, fan it so as flies won't sit on it. I thing it would make our community a better Sikh were they to put that granth down from that pedestal they have placed it on. AND READ IT. Do to the Grantha what a Grantha is meant to be done with.

One can't really say whether those who tried to roast me alive are better Sikh than I am. I tell you, you certainly don't want such professors of Sikhi to be the torch-bearers of our faith.

Sikhism is the evolution of Human along with the environment he/she is a part of towards a higher and a better understanding.

Read my questions and give me a fair response and I agree that I will not encourage others to critique the faith, but I will continue to question my faith and perhaps stir some lively debate in these areas.

This is no pompous shows of knowledge ?? these are everyday questions that an average university student would ask him/herself in the back of their minds at the sub-concious level.

And you can use gurbani along with any other source (scholarly), as have I, to caste a response and disregard what I wrote.... Use your own contextual interpretation to prove me wrong.

And please don't get all reved up, remember this is a learning process and if you don't consider life to be a learning process you are not a sikh.

Remember the Sikhs were considered liberal minded “back in the day”, which is why they suffered atrocities as our teachings conflicted with the teachings of the existing Islamic state. If you are a true Sikh retain your liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has become detached from reality (we live in a free country now, there will be no more atrocities). Until we answer these questions and many more similar questions, this faith will continue to be detached from its very own base! If you would like to post responses to these questions above please try to do so without using hostility, even though that is predominately the “Sikh way” (just kiddin).

And are more questions needs raising...

Is not putting up pictures of Bhagat Singh in Guru-dwara's and that too as a Keshdhari an insult to the Guru-dwara as well as to the memory of a great martyr like Bhagat Singhwho was a Marxist and an Athiest? Should not he be respected for what he was and what he stood for, what he believed in till his last breath?

It's not just Bhagat Singh the Akali and Neo-Sikh clowns are messing with. Look at how they treat the Dasam-Granth. Almost as if it doesn't exist. It might not be taken as a religious doctrine coz' Sikhism itself promoted scepticism through it's Guru's but the fact that it was written and that too by the Dasam-Pitaah is reason enough for it to be read. By all who believe in him. Or want to.

There has been considerable controversy surrounding some of the writings attributed to him, with the suggestion being made that they fail to fit into some aspects of the Sikh religion. Macauliffe, a British officer, was mainly responsible for seeding the question, with an effort to separate Sikhs from Hindus.

Now, all the cannons of purchased media are booming against Guru Gobind Singh and his writings and have been even labelled by some as an RSS-Brahminical propaganda. Every-thing Hindu is our enemy they proclaim. Superstitious Hindu... we all cry.

But if we find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay our respect . If some body found some stone at some place and said that these are the stones which one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana, we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and the stones are worshipped . If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a holed Jug we spend loads of money to pay homage.

Now, if some poetic compositions, even if purely literary but definitely seen as Dasam-Guru's work, at some ocassions were collected by Bhai Mani Singh after so many years of the Guru's departure, what is the harm in it ?? Are these worthless than a Jutti and stones ??

I too can challenge these Coffee-shop Sikh of Toronto and London. How can we abuse a Brahamin in the domocratic world . The Brahamana is considered preist by the Hindus. An equivalent of the Granthi. The Vedas contain lot of pronography but none of the Hindus or their shakraacharyas have ever raised the question of pronography and it's removal from Vedas .Let us see when ever such demand is raised how do the Hindu devouts rataliate. And if you ask me... I am sure they will give me all the reason in the world to continue to be proud of whatever I believe in. I am a real Sikh. A Sikh-Hindu. Searching for the truth. Maintaining a distance from those who claim to have found it.

Thanks

POST IGNORED BY PPS..............

 

[Ramta]

pps309,

Har, Hara and Hari mean the same thing.
HarMandir is HariMandir
Har Har Mahadev is Hari Hari Mahadev.

Why Omkar and Onkar too mean the same thing.

'Omkar' is pronounced as 'Onkar' using the rules of sandhi. We even find it as such in Sanskritic texts. When the m consonant precedes a velar consonant, that is ka, kha, ga, gha, it turns into the velar nasal consonant, that is 'n', thus Onkar. While it may be alternatively spelt as Omkar, it is still pronounced as Onkar, because the 'm' also stands for any conjunct or half nasal consonant. In this case as I've said, the velar n at the end of the k line.


Punjabi 'ik' + 'OM'


DevaNagari 'OM'


Tamil 'OM'


Tibeti 'OM'

SOURCE

There is 'OM' in Japanese, Han etc. scripts. Just because the script is different doesn't mean it means different...

Thanks

 

[pps309]

pps309,

Har, Hara and Hari mean the same thing.
HarMandir is HariMandir
Har Har Mahadev is Hari Hari Mahadev.

Why Omkar and Onkar too mean the same thing.

'Omkar' is pronounced as 'Onkar' using the rules of sandhi. We even find it as such in Sanskritic texts. When the m consonant precedes a velar consonant, that is ka, kha, ga, gha, it turns into the velar nasal consonant, that is 'n', thus Onkar. While it may be alternatively spelt as Omkar, it is still pronounced as Onkar, because the 'm' also stands for any conjunct or half nasal consonant. In this case as I've said, the velar n at the end of the k line.


Punjabi 'ik' + 'OM'


DevaNagari 'OM'


Tamil 'OM'


Tibeti 'OM'

SOURCE

There is 'OM' in Japanese, Han etc. scripts. Just because the script is different doesn't mean it means different...

Thanks

POST IGNORED PPS..............................

 

[dhana_jatt]

fer ohi gal... tera kehan ta point ah hai ki sikh hindu han ?

 

[dhana_jatt]

pps bai ignore hi karda eh eho je posts nu... ya fer copy paste karan nu kuch ni labeya hona

 

[dhana_jatt]

le bai geya offline... hun jawab nu sujde hone...
geya hona koi site vekhan...

 

[Ramta]

dhana jatt,

If you don't want to be a Hindu nobody can force you to be one. There are Hindu's who don't want to be Hindu after all. The communists for one. But I too am a Sikh and I never and nor do anyone in my family allow some semi literate Granthi to interpret Sikh scripture for us. We do that on our own. "Guru Manyo Granth" is what the Dasam-Pitah said and that's precisely what he meant. He never did mean "Guru Manyo SGPC/Granthi". And after having gone through the scripture any one can tell that Nanak was not bringing any new covenant from some God(He himself never claimed to) but only discovering what was already there. Nanak did not invent Sikhi. He discovered it. Come to think of it Sikhi was actually discovered by Kabir, Namdev, Tirlochan etc. all of whom existed when Nanak was not even born. And also all the things these people talked about existed before them.

But I dont detest your not wanthing to be Hindu but OMkar/Onkar certainly is a Hindu concept.

Thanks

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]"I got love for my brother but we can never go nowhere
unless we share with each other
We gotta start makin' changes
learn to see me as a brother instead of 2 distant strangers"[/FONT]​

 

[Dhillon]

I don’t think here is much left for me to say here. It’s unfortunate that we just cannot have a healthy discussion about religion.

Personally I have few things that I would have liked to discuss with Bulleshah, pps, dhana and others but the way things take shape here I might never feel comfortable.
So sensitive posting regarding any religion is barred indefinitely.