I am not RSS/RAW(lol)..

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Ramta

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...psy-op out to ruin your faith. I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things I don't agree with. How shall one discuss Sikhi or anything without Sikhi or any such idea, no matter how great, itself being open to criticism ?? Blasphemy is an integral part of all quest for Truth. The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique. So boy, if you want to be proud of who you are develop some confidence and real faith in what you say you believe in.

But to criticize the Sikh faith on certain aspects is becoming ineffectual for me, nobody listens, especially the people on the far right. Bu I am going to criticize anyway to reach out to the very few that understand. The reason why I criticize certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself. Those who believe criticism is a negative thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong. Criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES (take note people from the far right) and comes out stronger and more resilient (the catholic church is but a prime example). THOSE OF YOU WHO BELIEVE SIKH CRITICISM HAS BEEN LEFT UNATTENDED TO GIVE ME A SHOUT! THE NEW YOUTH OF THIS GENERATION HAVE QUESTIONS THAT ARE NOT BEING ANSWERED BY THE CONSERVATIVES WHO CLAIM TO RUN THE FAITH!

Does the Sikh faith has a stance on modern relativistic socio-political issues (ie, abortion, euthanasia, evolution, genetic research, gene therapy, definition of death, etc) our faith continuously assimilates and accepts the Church’s stance as our own! Or we listen to the diehard conservatives that dominate the stages at our Gurdawara’s who are far from what we can call intellectuals (deny all you want I have witnessed this happening) THIS IS WRONG AND VERY DANGEROUS TO THE INTEGRITY OF OUR FAITH.

So my Question now stands how do we rectify this issue? NOW THAT’S THE QUESTION WE SHOULD ASK OURSELVES. Lets work together to propel this faith into the 21st century. Citizens of the Sikh faith! Break your chains and PLEASE raise your voice, ask questions, criticize your faith, stretch boundaries and please for those conservatives, who are responding, do respond with clear and valid information.

SIKH is derived from the sanskrity word of “sikhsa”, meaning the learner. If we are learner’s we should be applying the techniques of learning; passionate debate, constructive criticism, clarity and REASON! (do not undermine human reason)

The conservatives say that we should turn to BANI whenever we are in doubt, but how? BANI doesn’t relate to current socio-political issues and drawing relations on our own is an unrelenting task, deciding whether to interpret the scriptures literally or contextually is already out of most peoples reach. BANI has a lot of underlying contextual meanings that we cannot interpret on our own. We need a Sikh institution that can lead the way (similar to the “Christian Research Groups”). IF YOU AGREE JUST GIVE ME A SHOUT OUT! I just want to make sure I’m not alone or the only person that sees this issue.

NOW...let's ask..

1) Does divine inspiration seem any longer necessary when reason can provide what, in the granthical view, can be taught only by the prophet?

2) The Sikh religion emphasized the equality of men and woman, no doubt, why were then all the Sikh Guru’s MALE ?? And why did they all belong to the High caste's ??

3) Did the Guru’s possess a political agenda? There is an evident power struggle.

4) After the first five Guru’s, did not the Sikh faith become a dynasty?

5) Why did the Guru Gobind Singh stop the line of Guru’s? Did he actually think the faith was complete? In a way didn’t Guru Gobind Singh inhibit and paralyze this faith to expand upon the gurbani?

6) What was the significance of Guru Harkrishan ji to Sikh scripture or for that matter Sikh psyche? Didn’t Guru Harkrishan ji pass away from the great small pox pandemic that struck New Dehli. The scripture says that he was out curing people of the disease but in the end contracted it himself?

7) Were our guru’s not men? Why does the majority of the Sikh population worship them as mythical heroes and non-human deities? (This is something we should definitely change in our faith; its an insult to our own reason)

8) Were not the guru’s products and derivatives of their own society?

9) Guru Gobind Singh used to hunt! Yet at the same time prohibit the consumption of animals, or was this tradition adopted after? Is there hypocrisy at hand?

10) Guru Gobind Singh practiced polygamy? Is there hypocrisy at hand?

11) Would the Guru’s have been more effective in implementing more peaceful measures with the Mughal rulers? (Someone only with a strong historical background should attempt to answer this question) Was such extreme Sikh militarization absolutely necessary? Was the militarization of the Sikhs part of Guru Gobind Singh’s political agenda? Again how was the 10th guru’s struggle any different from that of the struggles of elites today?

Remember the Sikhs were considered liberal minded “back in the day”, which is why they suffered atrocities as our teachings conflicted with the teachings of the existing Islamic state. If you are a true Sikh retain your liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has become detached from reality (we live in a free country now, there will be no more atrocities). Until we answer these questions and many more similar questions, this faith will continue to be detached from its very own base! If you would like to post responses to these questions above please try to do so without using hostility, even though that is predominately the “Sikh way” (just kiddin).

And ther are more questions needs raising...

Is not putting up pictures of Bhagat Singh in Guru-dwara's and that too as a Keshdhari an insult to the Guru-dwara as well as to the memory of a great martyr like Bhagat Singhwho was a Marxist and an Athiest? Should not he be respected for what he was and what he stood for, what he believed in till his last breath?

It's not just Bhagat Singh the Akali and Neo-Sikh clowns are messing with. Look at how they treat the Dasam-Granth. Almost as if it doesn't exist. It might not be taken as a religious doctrine coz' Sikhism itself promoted scepticism through it's Guru's but the fact that it was written and that too by the Dasam-Pitaah is reason enough for it to be read. By all who believe in him. Or want to.

There has been considerable controversy surrounding some of the writings attributed to him, with the suggestion being made that they fail to fit into some aspects of the Sikh religion. Macauliffe, a British officer, was mainly responsible for seeding the question, with an effort to separate Sikhs from Hindus.

Now, all the cannons of purchased media are booming against Guru Gobind Singh and his writings and have been even labelled by some as an RSS-Brahminical propaganda. Every-thing Hindu is our enemy they proclaim. Superstitious Hindu... we all cry.

But if we find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay our respect . If some body found some stone at some place and said that these are the stones which one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana, we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and the stones are worshipped . If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a holed Jug we spend loads of money to pay homage.

Now, if some poetic compositions, even if purely literary but definitely seen as Dasam-Guru's work, at some ocassions were collected by Bhai Mani Singh after so many years of the Guru's departure, what is the harm in it ?? Are these worthless than a Jutti and stones ??

The Hindu's too can challenge these Coffee-shop Sikh of Toronto and London. How can we abuse a Brahamin in the domocratic world ? The Brahamana is considered preist by the Hindus. An equivalent of the Granthi. The Vedas contain lot of pronography but none of the Hindus or their shakraacharyas have ever raised the question of pronography and it's removal from Vedas .Let us see when ever such demand is raised how do the Hindu devouts rataliate. And if you ask me... I am sure they will give me all the reason in the world to continue to be proud of whatever I believe in. I am a real Sikh. A Sikh-Hindu. Searching for the truth. Maintaining a distance from those who claim to have found it.

Thanks

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prinzdude

Member
..psy-op out to ruin your faith. I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things I don't agree with. How shall one discuss Sikhi or anything without Sikhi or any such idea, no matter how great, itself being open to criticism ?? Blasphemy is an integral part of all quest for Truth. The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique. So boy, if you want to be proud of who you are develop some confidence and real faith in what you say you believe in.

But to criticize the Sikh faith on certain aspects is becoming ineffectual for me, nobody listens, especially the people on the far right. Bu I am going to criticize anyway to reach out to the very few that understand. The reason why I criticize certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself. Those who believe criticism is a negative thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong. Criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES (take note people from the far right) and comes out stronger and more resilient (the catholic church is but a prime example). THOSE OF YOU WHO BELIEVE SIKH CRITICISM HAS BEEN LEFT UNATTENDED TO GIVE ME A SHOUT! THE NEW YOUTH OF THIS GENERATION HAVE QUESTIONS THAT ARE NOT BEING ANSWERED BY THE CONSERVATIVES WHO CLAIM TO RUN THE FAITH!

First of all, even I criticize some aspects of Sikhism, but mein enna samajhdar haan ke sach te jhooth ‘ch farak kar sakkan… Lagda hai, tainu RSS da kujh zyada hi bukhaar chadh gaya hai…

Does the Sikh faith has a stance on modern relativistic socio-political issues (ie, abortion, euthanasia, evolution, genetic research, gene therapy, definition of death, etc) our faith continuously assimilates and accepts the Church’s stance as our own! Or we listen to the diehard conservatives that dominate the stages at our Gurdawara’s who are far from what we can call intellectuals (deny all you want I have witnessed this happening) THIS IS WRONG AND VERY DANGEROUS TO THE INTEGRITY OF OUR FAITH.

I don’t know, why you want to know the definition of death, I tell you a good site for that, Dictionary.com

Again, why are you bothered with genetic research and gene therapy?
Evolution and Sikhism has been well documented here:
www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uplo...bh Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maaniyo Granth…’



8) Were not the guru’s products and derivatives of their own society?

What you mean by this? I didn’t get you..

9) Guru Gobind Singh used to hunt! Yet at the same time prohibit the consumption of animals, or was this tradition adopted after? Is there hypocrisy at hand?

Aha! There is a catch here… Kuttha meat (Halal meat) is not allowed, you can check SRM for that! And this is allowed only when its necessary.

10) Guru Gobind Singh practiced polygamy? Is there hypocrisy at hand?

Please check this out for the answer:
Mata Jito - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


11) Would the Guru’s have been more effective in implementing more peaceful measures with the Mughal rulers? (Someone only with a strong historical background should attempt to answer this question) Was such extreme Sikh militarization absolutely necessary? Was the militarization of the Sikhs part of Guru Gobind Singh’s political agenda? Again how was the 10th guru’s struggle any different from that of the struggles of elites today?

What you mean by militarization? Whole Sikh panth is a military force for your information! We are Saint Soldiers (Please note, saints first and then soldiers!). This was necessary for the kaum to make sure that no one can suppress us the way Indians were used to being suppressed by 1000 years of slavery! Does this answer your question?? And by the way, concept of saint soldier was not started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but by Guru Hargobind Singh ji (6th Guru of Sikhs) when he introduced the concept of Miri Piri.

Remember the Sikhs were considered liberal minded “back in the day”, which is why they suffered atrocities as our teachings conflicted with the teachings of the existing Islamic state. If you are a true Sikh retain your liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has become detached from reality (we live in a free country now, there will be no more atrocities). Until we answer these questions and many more similar questions, this faith will continue to be detached from its very own base! If you would like to post responses to these questions above please try to do so without using hostility, even though that is predominately the “Sikh way” (just kiddin).

And ther are more questions needs raising...

Is not putting up pictures of Bhagat Singh in Guru-dwara's and that too as a Keshdhari an insult to the Guru-dwara as well as to the memory of a great martyr like Bhagat Singhwho was a Marxist and an Athiest? Should not he be respected for what he was and what he stood for, what he believed in till his last breath?

Whats the need of putting his pics in gurudwara?????? What spiritual message did he gave???

It's not just Bhagat Singh the Akali and Neo-Sikh clowns are messing with. Look at how they treat the Dasam-Granth. Almost as if it doesn't exist. It might not be taken as a religious doctrine coz' Sikhism itself promoted scepticism through it's Guru's but the fact that it was written and that too by the Dasam-Pitaah is reason enough for it to be read. By all who believe in him. Or want to.

For your Kind information, Jaap Sahib, Tav Prasad Savaiyye and Chaupai sahib (Which are a part of Dasam Granth) are a part of a Sikh’s daily prayer.

There has been considerable controversy surrounding some of the writings attributed to him, with the suggestion being made that they fail to fit into some aspects of the Sikh religion. Macauliffe, a British officer, was mainly responsible for seeding the question, with an effort to separate Sikhs from Hindus.

Now, all the cannons of purchased media are booming against Guru Gobind Singh and his writings and have been even labelled by some as an RSS-Brahminical propaganda. Every-thing Hindu is our enemy they proclaim. Superstitious Hindu... we all cry.

But if we find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay our respect . If some body found some stone at some place and said that these are the stones which one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana, we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and the stones are worshipped . If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a holed Jug we spend loads of money to pay homage.

There is a difference in respecting and worshipping, we respect things of Guru’s and one more thing I would like to say is that Sikh History is not an epic, it’s a truth started from 15th century!

Now, if some poetic compositions, even if purely literary but definitely seen as Dasam-Guru's work, at some ocassions were collected by Bhai Mani Singh after so many years of the Guru's departure, what is the harm in it ?? Are these worthless than a Jutti and stones ??

You answered yourself, these compositions were collected by Bhai Mani Singh and compiled into Dasam Granth, and this is the main controversy surrounding Dasam Granth, that these compositions can’t be relied upon as these were not compiled by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

The Hindu's too can challenge these Coffee-shop Sikh of Toronto and London. How can we abuse a Brahamin in the domocratic world ? The Brahamana is considered preist by the Hindus. An equivalent of the Granthi. The Vedas contain lot of pronography but none of the Hindus or their shakraacharyas have ever raised the question of pronography and it's removal from Vedas .Let us see when ever such demand is raised how do the Hindu devouts rataliate. And if you ask me... I am sure they will give me all the reason in the world to continue to be proud of whatever I believe in. I am a real Sikh. A Sikh-Hindu. Searching for the truth. Maintaining a distance from those who claim to have found it.

And I again say, I doubt your being a Sikh!
 

Ramta

Member
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prinzdude,

Criticism is key in my argument and if you can’t cope with that please do not respond.
We must challenge faith not only as an institution but also from a unique historical perspective.

When I asked the question, "is there hypocrisy at hand?", I was but merely asking a question
not insisting that Guru ji was a hypocrite. It’s just fuel for thought, a test. I am not playing games.
And If I was to play games is that a bad thing? How dull would this world be without debate?
Without contradiction? Without different people? I do agree that I might have taken thing's a
wee bit far and too soon on these question.

My concerns are not baseless (they are valid concerns being asked by youth today)
but I’m afraid after this thread our faith is. Young Sikhs view their soul as indistinct
from their body (ahhh: where getting into an argument that’s not relative, I should
have kept my thread shorter, my first thread should have been creationism vs science
or 'is there such a thing as soul?'). I don't like the conditions upon which you have set
to answer my questions. I cannot accept your reply.

Sorry.


PS : There is contradiction within your response (NOTE: I messed up I posted up too many questions
at the same time: its taken me 30 minutes to get this far and I have a lot of other stuff to do.
I will most probably put up a new thread something simpler my arguments are getting to in depth.

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prinzdude

Member
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prinzdude,

Criticism is key in my argument and if you can’t cope with that please do not respond.
We must challenge faith not only as an institution but also from a unique historical perspective.

When I asked the question, "is there hypocrisy at hand?", I was but merely asking a question
not insisting that Guru ji was a hypocrite. It’s just fuel for thought, a test. I am not playing games.
And If I was to play games is that a bad thing? How dull would this world be without debate?
Without contradiction? Without different people? I do agree that I might have taken thing's a
wee bit far and too soon on these question.

My concerns are not baseless (they are valid concerns being asked by youth today)
but I’m afraid after this thread our faith is. Young Sikhs view their soul as indistinct
from their body (ahhh: where getting into an argument that’s not relative, I should
have kept my thread shorter, my first thread should have been creationism vs science
or 'is there such a thing as soul?'). I don't like the conditions upon which you have set
to answer my questions. I cannot accept your reply.

Sorry.


PS : There is contradiction within your response (NOTE: I messed up I posted up too many questions
at the same time: its taken me 30 minutes to get this far and I have a lot of other stuff to do.
I will most probably put up a new thread something simpler my arguments are getting to in depth.

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Even i said, i criticize many aspects of Sikhism, (Like we are still believing in faltoo superstitions, fasts, casteism, when these things are not allowed in Sikhi, we turn to various various dhongi baba's when we are supposed to go to them!)

But yet, i feel, you have overly negative views about Sikhism, i have seen all of your posts, and all of those posts are just filled with negatives about Sikhism, be positive man, have some positive outlook in life and you will be much better and find peace..

hor sun, mera kamm tere questions da jwab dena c, tu accept kar ya na kar, main ki ladoo laine aa...
 

pps309

Prime VIP
Oye Krishna/Bulleya tulleya bhulleys....Jo v tu aa......main teri kinniya threads ch reply kittiya te kinne question tere kolo pucche......Tere kanjar kolo ik v question da answer nahi aaya.............tu fer naviya threads banoun lag gaya...................pella jaake puraniya threads par jitthe tere peo ne jawab paye aa...............tere sarre veham dur ho jaane.
 

dhana_jatt

~*~ NiMaNa ~*~
Oye Krishna/Bulleya tulleya bhulleys....Jo v tu aa......main teri kinniya threads ch reply kittiya te kinne question tere kolo pucche......Tere kanjar kolo ik v question da answer nahi aaya.............tu fer naviya threads banoun lag gaya...................pella jaake puraniya threads par jitthe tere peo ne jawab paye aa...............tere sarre veham dur ho jaane.
bai ji jo rss aale ehnu jawab dande hone ohi paste kar sakda aagla v..
 

pps309

Prime VIP
Oye ullu de pattheya..............

tu kerhri struggle for power di gal karda si........

Tainu ik gal hor samjha da....kade dhyan naal sochi........Har larai da karan 3 kahe jaande aa...Jar, Joru te Jameen.

Mahabharat, Ramayan de v reason ehi sige..PAr Dashmesh Pita Guru Gobind Singh Ji de Jung da karaan ehna cho koi v nahi aa.....Ohna di Jung Sirf Dharam lai sigi......ohna di Jung julm te jabar de khilaf sigi.

Te 22 Ji...tusi jinna marji galat shalat boli chalo.....Guru de Sikh atal hunde aa......Oh ta seera to khopriya lava ke, aareya naal chirwake, bachyade tote gal ch paake v sikhi to nahi hatte...............

Ja 22.......araam naal beh ke thanda pani pi naale gol gaape kha.........Sikhi tera vas di gal nahi....bada jigra chai da osde lai....Koi jaman naal sikh nahi hunda..............furrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr:nerd....HAIN NA KAMAL Ka DHAKKAN
 

kudi_patole_wargi

Ki Zor Gareeba Da
Ja 22.......araam naal beh ke thanda pani pi naale gol gaape kha.........Sikhi tera vas di gal nahi....bada jigra chai da osde lai....Koi jaman naal sikh nahi hunda..............furrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr:nerd....HAIN NA KAMAL Ka DHAKKAN

paaji ehnu kala pani hi peen deo ..golgappe main kha lu:roll
 

SHauKeeN GaBRu

Chardi Kala
Oye Krishna/Bulleya tulleya bhulleys....Jo v tu aa......main teri kinniya threads ch reply kittiya te kinne question tere kolo pucche......Tere kanjar kolo ik v question da answer nahi aaya.............tu fer naviya threads banoun lag gaya...................pella jaake puraniya threads par jitthe tere peo ne jawab paye aa...............tere sarre veham dur ho jaane.


aethe v te aehi keha Bulle ne....
and i quote:
"I will most probably put up a new thread"
 

munda_wakhre_type_da

-- Kem da Gui --
ok fine ur not rss or wtever.. and just for a second i do believe dat u r a sikh .. bt frm all of ur postings i come to only one conclusion dat u have ur own mindset and u are totally obsessed with ur own beliefs which are totally wrng.. u just try to prove dat wtever u challenge or try to criticise is totally right .and maybe by doing so u get a high or smthing .. . koi kuch v kahe samjhaye bt u wont agree coz maybe dere is some ego in u which tells u not to change ur mind and prove to da whole world dat everybody out dere is wrng..

and yea da 11 questions u have asked shows only one thing dat u r just trying to corrupt the mindset of the people by askin too much negative and useless question... ask dose questions to urself nnd u urself can easily find da answers ..

one suggestion kise v religion nu criticise karan to changa oh time rabb da naam simran karan ch laale yaa try to do good things to others..oh jaada kam aungiyaan baad ch naa ke kise de dharam di beadbi karnaa..


 

munda_wakhre_type_da

-- Kem da Gui --
and yea u r sayin u r a sikh


oh c'mon tu naa hi sikh hai na hi hindu na hi musalmaan te na hi u belong to any religion whichever exists on earth... jo insaan ainwe kise de religion nu defame karan di koshish karda ya disrespect karda us insaan da kade koi dharam hi nahi ho sakda.. koi dharam kade v duje de dharam nu disrespect karan lai nahi kenda..




 
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