Granth vs Granthi

"Guru Maanyo Grantha" is what the Tenth Guru said. He never said "Guru Maanyo Granthi". The controversy over Harbhajan letting his hair down for a Whiskey Ad. is ill-founded(I don't understand how a turbaned Sikh appearing in a whiskey ad. would help the faith!).

I am a Sikh and have read the Shri Guru-Granth-Ji and now-where in the Granth did I find the Granth demanding any social contract like the Five-Kakar's i.e. Kesh, Kada etc. from the Sikh. The Sikh Clerics while claiming that Harbhajan has gone against the tenet's of the Sikh faith must also provide some-thing from the Shri Guru-Granth-Ji regarding any compulsion on a Sikh to adhere to the doctrine of the Five Kakar's. The Clergy(self proclaimed copy-righ holder's of the Faith) must provide something from the Gurbani itself and not bed-time stories they heard from their parent's.

Let's stop confusing between Sikh and Khalsa and understand that the Khalsa was codified by Guru Gobind Singh, not by Sikhism.

Though Kabir writes in the Shri Guru-Granth :
kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||

But Guru Gobind Singh was born almost 171 years after Kabir's death. The context in which the anti-ritual Kabir uses the word "khalsa" has nothing to do with the highly ritualized Khalsa order created by Guru Gobind Singh. The only thing in common is the word "khalsa." However, the word by itself means little. The context is everything.

The Granth is everything that the Khalsa is not!
The Khalsa is everything that Sikhism is not!
Sikhism didn't codify the Khalsa . Guru Gobind Singh did.
Sikhism is a Faith and is anti-ritual. Khalsa is an organisation and is all about riruals and codes...
...the five K's, tying up Kesh in a particular manner,'do-this-and-don't-do-that'...

"kabeer preeti ik siau keey aan dubhidhaa jaai; bhaavey laambe kes karu bhaavey gharari mundaai"
(Kabir, when you are in love with the One God, duality and alienation depart. You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald.)
-- KABIR Source: Adi Granth, p. 1365

Does Sikhism really require that of people? That they maintain unshorn Hair and then tie it up, comb twice a day and tie a specific head cover? It all seems pointless and ritualistic. Hope someone can point me in the right direction. If it is God's gift, then why hide it under a turban? Covering head for humility is OK but if you can keep the hair tidy while it is down then what is wrong with that?

And if the Sikh Faith(according to the Shri Guru-Granth) indeed demand's such a social contract from the Sikh one fails to understand how Sikhism could be called progressive and liberal. That progressive it once was and a reaction to institutionalised Brahminism is true, but the way it is interpreted today by the so called keeper's of the Faith, it looks no different from institutionalised Hinduism of five hundred years ago. Brahminism looks more progressive in that nobody attacked Ganguli for not having worn a 'janneyu' when he displayed his torso.

Thanks.

Some very Interesting thoughts,there are questions in the post which at times i ask my self.
would like to hear more from you.

kinda controversial post, wont like to comment on it, I have never read Guru Granth Sahib, but I doubt on the credibility of the post...

i don't believe in god.I m just afraid of him.

and this is the best way our for me..

peace out.

my dear frn.wat u want????? knowledge or controversy??????? if knowledge nd true facts then i can........but if any cotroversy then am sorry dear.

We don’t have to agree to whatever someone said but we should respect other’s opinions if we expect the same respect in return. Try to keep an open mind
I am keen on hearing some intelligent remarks for/against the annotations made by BulleShah.

We have 10 Gurus, out of those 10 Gurus, I do not think any Guru was having hair cut or shave.
Sikh as a religion was established in 1699. In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh ji himself give the Bana (appearence), 5 K's, Dastaar to the first 5 Sikhs in the world. So I do not think this rule is formed by any granthi, it is formed by Guru himself.


"kabeer preeti ik siau keey aan dubhidhaa jaai; bhaavey laambe kes karu bhaavey gharari mundaai"


I 110% agree with this line of Saint Kabeer. No matter you have long hairs or short hairs....most important is man should have preeti with the GOD.
And we accepted the hukam of Guru Gobind Singh and decided to keep kesh. But kesh is not only thing Guru Suggested....first is the naam-simran. Guru ji and Kabir are not contradicting.

I think we have sikhs without kesh also, sehajdhari sikh.

Kabeer has not told that keeping long hairs is bad. People do so to be unique, may be to show there love to Guru, some feel proud on their history, some feel by keeping hairs and tying turban they always feel they are more resonsible and their one bad thing will bring bad name to whole community.

One thing I would like to share is that. Sikhism is the one religion which tells about Jeevan-mukt. You can attain Nirvana while living only, you need not die to attain nirvana.
The way to do that is naam-simran. When each cell of your body will praise that lord you are jeevan mukt.

Sikhism is the one religion which says anyone while living in this world with family, sons and businesses can be very close to God. Sikhism never asked people to take sanyas or be yogis to attain God or nirvana.


I have not read full Guru Granth Sahib ji. I will try to get you the answers of questions.

Here we go my dear friend……u r absolutely rite ke guru maneo granth……i wanna say one thing if u r a sikh and read Guru Granth Sahib then there is no way to ask that type of question coz in Guru Granth Sahib Ji every answer is there. am not well versed wid Guru Granth Sahib but upto sm point am able to give sm views…..sikh clerics are rite about five K’s….its a part of rehat……Guru Gobind Singh Ji said ...rehat pyari mujhko na pyara sikh……….the five k’s r necessary for the strength nd unity of religion nd also for da value each had…wats confusion between sikh and khalsa?lemme define wats a relation between sikh,sikhism nd khalsa…….sikhism was founded by first Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji who laid da basic principle of sikhism….it offered a simple and true sikh teachings…all the other gurus followed him….Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the sikhs a distinct uniform nd appearance…on April 13 1699 created khalsa…..in general, khalsa means pure but in Sikhism khalsa means khalsa is da highest nd da most glorified state of a sikh who has attained a spiritual perfection……wats granrhi concept…..to whom u referred as a granthi? wud u like to clear please.....<O></O>
yes in real sikhism requires ……maintenance of hair in respect nd proper way…..sorry to say am a sikh wid haircut……all I did it to become a yankey….I thought wid haircut I can improve my look……sm ppl think same as me…..sm do coz they feel more comfortable without turban…….but actually truth is truth……sikhs need to cover their hair wid turban…..it was made officially by guru Gobind Singh Ji….the main reason is to preserve the sikh identity….one more thing…the ppl frm high class wear turban nd were called sardars means leaders….dis segregated ppl frm high nd low classes…so we can also say in order to eliminate da class system associated wid turban guru ji made every sikh sardar……..the turban of a sikh is his primary identifying feature…….the turban is a flag of Sikhs consciousness as well as crown of spiritual royality……nd why to comb hairs? to make beautiful, neat nd clean…….nd turban protects hairs from dust as well….simply turban is a unique personality of a sikh……….well my friend u said nobody attacked ganguli for a janneyu……I dunno why but ppl attacked on Guru Nanak Dev Ji when he refused to wear janneyu even in childhood as u know guru ji was born in hindu family….in mah views upto guru Teg Bahadur Ji sikhism was almost same but Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave a new turn to sikhism by creating a khalsa panth….he was great poet, warrior, ruler, nd a human being jisne aavde ma, pita ate chaare putt vaar ke v ihi akea ke….char muaye tou kiya hua jeevat kayee hazaar…….why???? kaum vaaste……for sikhs……nd now we ppl started discriminating that great personalities….i wanna more to say but laterzzzzzzz.
<O></O>

jattpunjabi said:

Here we go my dear friend……u r absolutely rite ke guru maneo granth……i wanna say one thing if u r a sikh and read Guru Granth Sahib then there is no way to ask that type of question coz in Guru Granth Sahib Ji every answer is there. am not well versed wid Guru Granth Sahib but upto sm point am able to give sm views…..sikh clerics are rite about five K’s….its a part of rehat……Guru Gobind Singh Ji said ...rehat pyari mujhko na pyara sikh……….the five k’s r necessary for the strength nd unity of religion nd also for da value each had…wats confusion between sikh and khalsa?lemme define wats a relation between sikh,sikhism nd khalsa…….sikhism was founded by first Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji who laid da basic principle of sikhism….it offered a simple and true sikh teachings…all the other gurus followed him….Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the sikhs a distinct uniform nd appearance…on April 13 1699 created khalsa…..in general, khalsa means pure but in Sikhism khalsa means khalsa is da highest nd da most glorified state of a sikh who has attained a spiritual perfection……wats granrhi concept…..to whom u referred as a granthi? wud u like to clear please.....<O></O>
yes in real sikhism requires ……maintenance of hair in respect nd proper way…..sorry to say am a sikh wid haircut……all I did it to become a yankey….I thought wid haircut I can improve my look……sm ppl think same as me…..sm do coz they feel more comfortable without turban…….but actually truth is truth……sikhs need to cover their hair wid turban…..it was made officially by guru Gobind Singh Ji….the main reason is to preserve the sikh identity….one more thing…the ppl frm high class wear turban nd were called sardars means leaders….dis segregated ppl frm high nd low classes…so we can also say in order to eliminate da class system associated wid turban guru ji made every sikh sardar……..the turban of a sikh is his primary identifying feature…….the turban is a flag of Sikhs consciousness as well as crown of spiritual royality……nd why to comb hairs? to make beautiful, neat nd clean…….nd turban protects hairs from dust as well….simply turban is a unique personality of a sikh……….well my friend u said nobody attacked ganguli for a janneyu……I dunno why but ppl attacked on Guru Nanak Dev Ji when he refused to wear janneyu even in childhood as u know guru ji was born in hindu family….in mah views upto guru Teg Bahadur Ji sikhism was almost same but Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave a new turn to sikhism by creating a khalsa panth….he was great poet, warrior, ruler, nd a human being jisne aavde ma, pita ate chaare putt vaar ke v ihi akea ke….char muaye tou kiya hua jeevat kayee hazaar…….why???? kaum vaaste……for sikhs……nd now we ppl started discriminating that great personalities….i wanna more to say but laterzzzzzzz.
<O></O>

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bohat changa ji.......

not a problem man

Well I stopped writing or giving replies to such posts.. But i think i must answer you as you have gone to the extent to challenging Sri Guru Granth Saahib ji and the various tenets of Sikhism....



Agreed, in SGGS nothing is written about FIVE K's and there is no mention of anything like that.. but in SGGS there is mention of AMRIT and there is mention of AMRIT NAAM and also there is mention of being a SIKH and being GURU kA SIKH.. so what does these signify.. Ask yourself...

Just an analogy, If u get a job in top notch job in some top notch company and you got the appointment letter and all. Have you ever seen that in the appointment letter they will tell you to wear suit or wear formal dress or wear shirt/trousers & all. They never go into that details as most of the stuff is understood. Same way being a sikh, if you are reading SGGS, few things are implied too...


Yes Khalsa was given the form by Guru Gobind Singh ji, but whats the difference between the teaching of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji.. can you find any difference. NO.. because there is no difference at all.. Both of them done & preached the same things.. So all the tenets of being a khalsa and being a sikh were shown by Sri Guru Nanak dev ji and not by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. Guru Gobind Singh ji just gave the form to an already existing thoughts and already existing beleives of sikhism and thats why Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji is also called 10th Guru Nanak Dev Ji..

The Kabir writings clearly proves this that even before Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji, Concept of Khalsa and Khalsa ideologies existed.

You said the word KHALSA means little... Sorry to say this but then you have not even understood or try to understand the word KHALSA.. Yous aid you ahve read SGGS, then tell me how many times & in how many forms have u read the word KHALSA... MANY MANY TIMES... and remember Guru Granth Sahib ji was written even before Guru GObind Singh ji too...

well you have differentiated between Sikhism and Khalsa... but where's the difference.. alright lets go by you. according to you Sikhism was started by Guru Nanak dev ji and khalsa was started by Guru Gobind Singh ji... Now let me get to the values of Sikhism started by Guru Nanak Dev ji. so weren't those values of about being pure, being true, remember the god, stay away form bad things, stay away from NASHA,try not to find GOD in stones or anywhere, Always take GUru's Name and remember god.. well Sorry to say but I cant find any value which is different from the values of KHALSA....as I said before Guru Gobind Singh ji, just gave the form to Khalsa but Khalsa existed even before him...

so an ideal definition of sikh would be a person who can keep his BAANA and BAANI..

BAANA IS outer identity i.e. 5ks and all appearance of sikhs.
BAANI is inner self, taking god's naam and do naam simran...


Sikhism is progressive & liberal in each & every way.. Few examples;

1. Tell me which other religion in this world say GOD IS one in there everyday prayers.

2. Tell me which other religion in this world asks for wellness of all world and good for eveyone in there everyday prayers. SARBAT DA BHALA.. SIKHISM does that every time u remember God and do ARDAS.

3. Tell me in which other religion are the men & women given equal rights & equal opportunities..( not even in Christianity, which is considered very liberal).

4. Tell me which other religion says that every one has to be good in there own religion and they need not practice SIKHISM for that... In fact Christians wanna make more Christians or Hindus wanna make more christians.. Have u ever heard anyone converting u to sikhism?

5. Tell me which other religion says that first eat food, langar(free food), take a bath (Sarowar) and then Remember GOD...All other religions ask you to get away fro this world'ly things...

6. Tell me which other religion accepts people from other religions the way sikhism does.. Proof of this can be had from the four doors of Harmandir Saahib, which means anyone can come from any four directions...

7. Tell me which other religion has given sacrifices for other religions, to protect the people and to protect there religion.. Doesn't this show something?

8. Tell me which other religion believes in upliftment of society as a whole, protecting the poor and all...


I can think of possibly another 100 points like this and for me they are enough for prove that SIkhism is liberal, in fact very liberal. If they doesn't make sense to you, then I don't know what your definition of being liberal is...

Just for your knowledge, Sikhism is the only religion in the world which is very close to the UN IDEAL religion... almost all of the things that UN proposed for ideal religion can be found in SIKHISM...

& in Sikhism there are few things which are considered very inhuman and one of it is to be out of control of yourself either by drinking or by any other means. So thats why drinking, smoking & all things are very much a big NO NO. Well I don't know, but I think this is what doctors and health people warn u now.. that stay away from drinking & SMOKING and this is what is said in sikhism 500 years ago.. so is it bad, if you are a sikh and you are following this.. NOT TO ME AT LEAST.. so that was why there was big fuss about Harbhajan's whiskey Ad. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND IT NOW?

just for your knowledge it is for these JANAYU that ganguly was wearing that Our guru sacrificed his life so that people like Ganguly can live freely and can do whatever they want too...

so need to read the whole thread before i comment......shall find time to do so after the exams

jattpunjabi,

i wanna say one thing if u r a sikh and read Guru Granth Sahib then there is no way to ask that type of question coz in Guru Granth Sahib Ji every answer is there. am not well versed wid Guru Granth Sahib but upto sm point am able to give sm views…..sikh clerics are rite about five K’s….its a part of rehat……Guru Gobind Singh Ji said ...rehat pyari mujhko na pyara sikh……….the five k’s r necessary for the strength nd unity of religion nd also for da value each had…wats confusion between sikh and khalsa?

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full taur(Why such a long post?),

The Kabir writings clearly proves this that even before Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji, Concept of Khalsa and Khalsa ideologies existed.

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I repeat :

Kabir writes in the Shri Guru-Granth :

kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||

But Guru Gobind Singh was born almost 171 years after Kabir's death. The context in which the anti-ritual Kabir uses the word "khalsa" has nothing to do with the highly ritualized Khalsa order created by Guru Gobind Singh. The only thing in common is the word "khalsa." However, the word by itself means little. The context is everything.

OK... The Guru Granth...
"kabeer preeti ik siau keey aan dubhidhaa jaai; bhaavey laambe kes karu bhaavey gharari mundaai"
(Kabir, when you are in love with the One God, duality and alienation depart. You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald.)
-- KABIR Source: Adi Granth, p. 1365


[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]I raised a question and I'm still missing an answer to my question :[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]How can the Guru-Granth and the Khalsa be one when one is anti-ritual and the other all about rituals ??[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Where is the Granth is a demand on the Sikh to enter into a social contract like the five kakars ??[/FONT]

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Your argument that Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Khalsa Panth, Guru Gobind Singh, Guru Nanak are one is something I didn't find in the Gurbani. [/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Customs and traditions evolve over time I agree but what I am saying is how is an obligation to grow ones hair any different from an obligation to shave it. [/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]And don't you think that if there is one custom that should have been eradicated long ago is the parampara of carrying the Granth on ones head and instead reading it. A ritul is a ritual be it Vaishnavi, Shaiviite or Sikh or Jaini...[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Does Gurbani encourage these is what I ask. [/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]The Guru's were not God-send and were derivates of the environment tye were born in.[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]How can you be so sure that the Khalsa system you believe in is not manipulated where you reside ??[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]You talk of Guru Hukamnaama's! Lets talk of Dasam-Granth...[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Is the Dasam-Granth a part of the Guru-Granth ?? Answer = NO[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Is the Guru Hukamnaama's a part of the Granth ?? Answer = NO[/FONT]
Is the Rehat Maryada a part of the Granth // Answer = NO
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]But you accept one and deny the other. WHY ??[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]The reason why I criticize certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself. Those who believe criticism is a negative thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong, criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES.[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]But Sikhism today doesn't evolve and thus doesn't attract the way it did upto the time of the Guru's.[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]That is upto the time the Guru Granth was not complete and perfect.[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Than one day it was proclaimed to be PERFECT & COMPLETE.[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]This brings me to another question :[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]The day Guru Gobind Singh stopped the line of Guru’s, did he actually think the faith was complete ??[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]In a way didn’t Guru Gobind Singh inhibit and paralyze this faith to expand upon the gurbani ??[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]The Non-Sikh and the Non-Keshdhari seem to have learnt more from Gurbani than the Keshdhari's in that no child today is denied admission in school for not wearing a janneu but a Sikh child is mandatorily required to be Keshdshari in a Sikh run school.[/FONT]

Do you agree ?? If no, WHY ?? If yes, WHY ??
Please critique my qritiques if you wish to. But if can't cope with criticism please do not respond. And when you post a response please provide references from the Gurbani to validate your claims. The validity of your claims is what you must prove, you shouldn’t leave it up to the reader to go and look up the validity of your claims.





Thanks


[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]NOTE : Rest assured this criticism of mine I repeat is not to offend anybody. If one really is a Sikh he/she must retain his/her liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has become detached from reality and its very owm base. Criticism is key in my argument and if you can’t cope with that please do not respond. We must challenge faith not only as an institution but also from a unique historical perspective. And when you post a response please provide references from the Gurbani to validate your claims. The validity of your claims is what you must prove, you shouldn’t leave it up to the reader to go and look up the validity of your claims![/FONT]

Its common sense that a religion cannot be without rituals, no matter what is written where!
Religion without Rituals? How to get married, what to do with the dead.
It will suffice to say that Sikhism is against Superstition and not ritualism.

The day Guru Gobind Singh stopped the line of Guru’s, did he actually think the faith was complete ??

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Maybe he felt that there were enough guidelines in SGGS to be followed by Sikhs and there was no need of a Corporal Guru.

BulleShah said:

full taur(Why such a long post?),

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well the long post was just to make you understand simple points and just to make you aware of certain things.. but seems like you don't even wanna read those , forget about understanding it. Anyways I'm here with my another long post, as I'm sure that people who will read your post will take a time to read my post too and then at least they will have a better understanding..

I will never ever gave references from Gurbaani here, as I respect SGGS from core of my heart and I don't wanna write anything, as it is a disrespect to the holy baani....

BulleShah said:

I repeat :

Kabir writes in the Shri Guru-Granth :

kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||

But Guru Gobind Singh was born almost 171 years after Kabir's death. The context in which the anti-ritual Kabir uses the word "khalsa" has nothing to do with the highly ritualized Khalsa order created by Guru Gobind Singh. The only thing in common is the word "khalsa." However, the word by itself means little. The context is everything.

OK... The Guru Granth...
"kabeer preeti ik siau keey aan dubhidhaa jaai; bhaavey laambe kes karu bhaavey gharari mundaai"
(Kabir, when you are in love with the One God, duality and alienation depart. You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald.)
-- KABIR Source: Adi Granth, p. 1365


I raised a question and I'm still missing an answer to my question :
How can the Guru-Granth and the Khalsa be one when one is anti-ritual and the other all about rituals ??
Where is the Granth is a demand on the Sikh to enter into a social contract like the five kakars ??

Your argument that Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Khalsa Panth, Guru Gobind Singh, Guru Nanak are one is something I didn't find in the Gurbani.

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well I tried to answer your questions but seems like you are not getting it and you even don't want to understand it.

what you mean by rituals & all.. Sikhism was meant to be without any rituals and superstitions and all. If you are saying having 5 kakaars or being a khalsa is ritual, then thats wrong. Its a way that you can e pure to god and its a way that you can be disciplined and you always remember to remember god, so thats why you are asked to do nitnem and stay away from Drugs and nasha & all.. So why is your mind stuck at 5 K's.. think about other things that come with being a khalsa..

There is a protocol of doing everything and likewise there is a protocol to being a sikh and the 5 Kakaars come under this protocol and why will it be written in SGGS.

what the employees have to wear or do in office, is this written in Company's annual policy or annual statement. All these things are implied and we see only about company in the company policy or annual statements..

Now think about this. what did Guru Nanak Dev Ji said that have true life, be true to yourself, speak truth and be pure and remember GOD and if im not wrong then this is what you do when you are a KHALSA.. so how is being KHALSA different from being SIKH or how is Guru Nanak Dev ji different from Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Obviously You wont find anything on this in SGGS, as SGGS was written well before Guru Gobind Singh ji and this has never been modified after it and this shows how complete it is.

But in SGGS you can find the word KHALSA as pointed by you and you can find all values what Guru Nanak Dev ji said and which is same as Guru Gobind Singh ji.

yes u r right, Kabeer ji said absolutely right, you can have log hair or anything to remember God and this is what SIKHISm always PREACH..t hat be true to your religion and to your god... Try & understand this point, instead of thinking that KABEER ji said that you can shorn hair. what he meant here was that U CAN remember god in any form and in any physical appearance and in any RELIGION...

BulleShah said:

Customs and traditions evolve over time I agree but what I am saying is how is an obligation to grow ones hair any different from an obligation to shave it. And don't you think that if there is one custom that should have been eradicated long ago is the parampara of carrying the Granth on ones head and instead reading it. A ritul is a ritual be it Vaishnavi, Shaiviite or Sikh or Jaini...

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Another one of your self made things.... we carry Guru Granth sahib ji on our head to show respect and to keep our GURU above everyone else, just as a mark of respect. you said GRANTH( better make it GURU, mate), but its not a book or granth to us, its our GURU and like for every guru we give our GURU importance and thats why offer food to GURU, GURU goes to sleep every night and GURU wakes up every morning and we keep it that way to show respect & all..
Just imagine, if we had GURU as person, wont we be doing the same things to him.. So thats the whole point mate !!!! and its not a ritual...

BulleShah said:

Does Gurbani encourage these is what I ask. The Guru's were not God-send and were derivates of the environment tye were born in.

How can you be so sure that the Khalsa system you believe in is not manipulated where you reside ??

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Khalsa panth has never been modified and will never be manipulated in any form as everyone agrees to it and probably thats why Sri Guru Granth Saahibji has never been changed and never will be...Do we have different definition of Khalsa in Gurdaspur, Chandigarh, Sydney or new york... everywhere its the same. Its just the people who changes or who think that they wanna follow this & this not. but otherwise everything is the same everywhere. So people like you, who just want to justify themselves, they do manipulate it but its only for your personal satisfaction and the world or the Khalsa doesn't change or manipulate

BulleShah said:

You talk of Guru Hukamnaama's! Lets talk of Dasam-Granth..Is the Dasam-Granth a part of the Guru-Granth ?? Answer = NO

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How can Dasam granth be part of Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru Granth Saahib ji was written well before Guru Gobind Singh ji and Dasam Granth was wriiten by Guru gobind SIngh ji.. and Guru Granth Sahibji is our Guru, not Dasam Granth.. Moroever there are many baanis like Jaap Saahib which is written after GURU Granth Saahib ji, but they are part of our everyday prayers. Moroever there was never a TRY or never a move to include these baanis in SGGS.

BulleShah said:

Is the Guru Hukamnaama's a part of the Granth ?? Answer = NO

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Do you even know what is Guru's HUkamnama..A GUru Hukam nama is what we see everyday from SGGS ( Sri Guru Granth Saahib ji). Mate start going to Guruduwara sahib and then you will come to know that thats hukamnama and thats a means by which our Guru (SGGS) says something to us and we should obey it and by hukamnama Guru gives us directions on how to lead a truthful life...

BulleShah said:

Is the Rehat Maryada a part of the Granth // Answer = NO

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Rehat maryada is a code of conduct, a protocol.. How can that be part of Granth.. Cmon man be logical and use your own thinking.SGGS is not a book about rules or anything, its a means by which you can reach true God and can discover God within yourself..

BulleShah said:

But Sikhism today doesn't evolve and thus doesn't attract the way it did upto the time of the Guru's.
That is upto the time the Guru Granth was not complete and perfect.
Than one day it was proclaimed to be PERFECT & COMPLETE.

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hehehe.. hehe I can laugh at you and your thinking... Did anyone ever said Guru Granth Saahib ji was never complete.. It was always complete and thats why it has never been modified and thats why its the only religious Granth ji, which as been written by the Guru itself and never been modified. Now i know your dirty mind, you will say that why was it made guru after 10th Guru and why not earlier.. Well if you read the history you can answer this as well.. well do you think that Guru granth saahib ji would have been able to give the sacrifices that Guru Gobind Singh ji gave, would Guru Granth Sahib ji be able to fight so many wars... would Guru Granth saahib ji have saved so many people by clutches of rulers.. Probably NO. so thats why we have these gurus, who were constantly getting strength form Guru Granth Saahib ji & baani and were fighting against all odds...

BulleShah said:

This brings me to another question :
The day Guru Gobind Singh stopped the line of Guru’s, did he actually think the faith was complete ??
In a way didn’t Guru Gobind Singh inhibit and paralyze this faith to expand upon the gurbani ??

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Another one of your shallow thinking and your bad views and this clearly shows, how much you know about Sikhism and how much you know the history &

all...Anyways let me tell you few things then:

What is GURU: According to Sikhism, GURU is the one who can take you closer to GOD.. GURU UH JO RAB NAAL MILAAVE.. and thats why for this reason we have
guru and we don't consider them GOD and we don't do PUJA or worship our gurus... they are not GOD....because of this..

what is GOD: GOD according to GURU is supreme being and GOD can be found inside any person. In fact according to gurbaani, there is GOD & devil inside

everyone's heart.. and its up to the person to think like a GOD or be a DEVIL.. so finding the GOD inside is the maimn thrust of Sikhism...

Now why SRi GURU Granth Saahib ji: Guru ji made Guru Granth Sahib ji our guru, because from SGGS we can get all the teachings and get everything that we need from our GURU... and SGGS, tries & connect us with GOD and we can get answers to all questions as its considered complete in each & every respect. so

that's why SGGS was made our GURU !!!

The fact, that it doesn't only contain baani of Sikh gurus is a great example of how liberal sikh religion is and how sikhism believes in universal brotherhood and respect for each & every religion...

BulleShah said:

The Non-Sikh and the Non-Keshdhari seem to have learnt more from Gurbani than the Keshdhari's in that no child today is denied admission in school for not wearing a janneu but a Sikh child is mandatorily required to be Keshdshari in a Sikh run school.

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CRAP.. who said Hindus or for that matter anyone cant study in Sikh schools.. All my education in India is from Sikh school and there were people from all religions and even foreigners studying in our classes. Buddy get some air, if you dont know anything..

I repeat again, people can wear this janneu, thats why our Guruji gave the supreme sacrifice. and if people like you are saying something and are free, its because of our Guru ji only and for his sacrifice. YOU NEED A PROOF FOR THAT, THEN READ ANY HISTORY BOOK.

BulleShah said:

NOTE : Rest assured this criticism of mine I repeat is not to offend anybody. If one really is a Sikh he/she must retain his/her liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has become detached from reality and its very owm base. Criticism is key in my argument and if you can’t cope with that please do not respond. We must challenge faith not only as an institution but also from a unique historical perspective. And when you post a response please provide references from the Gurbani to validate your claims. The validity of your claims is what you must prove, you shouldn’t leave it up to the reader to go and look up the validity of your claims!

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STATIC FAITH.... hehehe... Sikhism is the worlds youngest religion and by far the most modern religion. If the teachings & values of sikhism can be adhered

too in this world & society everyones life will be so much easy:

1. Sikhism says say no to drugs, Smoking & drinks.. don't we want this and don't doctors & other health professionals say this?

2. In Sikhism,its very strongly said that have a family and have sex with only one partner.. IF this would have been followed there would have been no disease like AIDS? dont we want this in our society today?

3. Sikhism says, meditate and remember god and you will get peace, calm & satisfaction.. Everyone seems to agree with this and people more & more and doing all sort of stuff to do this world over?

4. Sikhism strongly advocates that GOD is one and all religions are equal and we mush all live with each other in harmony and respect each other religions. Don't we want this in our society today?

5. Sikhism strongly advocates the policy of being humble and friendly with everyone and work towards making world a better place to live.. Don't we want this in our society today?

I think if people start following the teaching & values of sikhism, the world would be free from all diseases and all problems like terrorism and all.. BUT

SOME NARROW MINDED PEOPLE SAY ITS STATIC FAITH... I think people like this cant even think outside the box and there thinking is like blackbox...


You said you have to be critic, yeah good be a critic but buddy get your facts right first.. Read some history, get some knowledge about sikhism and then you will find answers to most of your questions..be a student of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, instead of finding faults in it..

Man.. you are missing the first thing of being a SIKH.. a SIKH means a student.. so be a student first and try & understand it and then be a critic, instead of being just a critic without knowing proper details & proper history...

full taur,

1. Sikhism says say no to drugs, Smoking & drinks.. don't we want this and don't doctors & other health professionals say this?

2. In Sikhism,its very strongly said that have a family and have sex with only one partner.. IF this would have been followed there would have been no disease like AIDS? dont we want this in our society today?

3. Sikhism says, meditate and remember god and you will get peace, calm & satisfaction.. Everyone seems to agree with this and people more & more and doing all sort of stuff to do this world over?

4. Sikhism strongly advocates that GOD is one and all religions are equal and we mush all live with each other in harmony and respect each other religions. Don't we want this in our society today?

5. Sikhism strongly advocates the policy of being humble and friendly with everyone and work towards making world a better place to live.. Don't we want this in our society today?

I think if people start following the teaching & values of sikhism, the world would be free from all diseases and all problems like terrorism and all

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You forgot the verses from the Granth preaching gender equality !! But we all knowThe Sikh community has the lowest sex ratio of 893 females per 1,000 males well below the national average of 933.

Selectively quoting from the verses to satiate our egos is not going to help.

What we need to do is ask one question of our own selves.

Do we really need a Guru or Scripture to tell us all that ??
Should not common sense be enough ??

Most religions give honour to women, talk of equality, be humble, don't kill innocents etc. etc. But we Sikh tend to try and show they are better than everybody else in this regard. But our actual track record in society doesn't corroborate this frequently made claim.

The problem is not that we don't look upto to religion for answers but that we depent too much on it.

Buddha never said treat women equally but there is a hardly a Boddhi who kills the girl feotus. Buddha never said keep away from drinks and drugs(Sikh are champoions in this) but the Buddhists hardly take it as a licence to do it. Buddha never said have a family life and sex with just one partner but the Buddhists understand that anyway. You why know ?? Because Buddha said : THINK. AND USE YOUR COMMON SENSE.

Even Communists are doing better.

Whatever the purposes Sikhi or for that matter any religion is supposed to fulfills religion has failed to fulfilled and can and should be filled by something else. Contemplation of the natural and immediate environment can do the job.



Thanks

Mr. BulleShah...the sex ratio has nothing to do with the religion, its all up to the mentality of the people...that has to be changed, if you believe that you are doing a great deal by posting all this thn u r wrong, and please stop making wrong accusations and dont make hasty generalization, if few people are corrupt that doesnt mean the whole community is like that, and if you dont feel proud being part of this community, then keep it to yourself, you dont have to come here and spoil the life of others....

Mr. Bulle shah,
First of all, let me correct your incorrect knowledge of religion. Be it any religion, none of them teach us the practices u stated in ur earlier message. whatever we do on this earth is only and only our responsibility. Religion has nothing to do with all the societal woes. Caste systems, prejudices against women, racial discrimination, etc are not formed by God, His followers or any of the religions.. it is formed by MAN...May be someone like you had only formed these kind of practices to make himself feel proud. And now u'r only pointing fingers at these practices and blaming the religions. U think just by belonging to any religion makes you pure?..u become pure by doing good deeds and by preaching His name...if u r so concerned abt the women and the girls being being killed all over the world then why dont u do something abt it...instead of throwing dirt on others.

Moreover, religion does not teach anyone to do bad things or ill treat others. it is the Man himself who gets carried away. this is his greed, his Ego which makes him do things tht u so easily blame onto our religion.. U tel me.. does Hinduism give permission for drinking? No....but many do...does Islam give? NO...but many do, infact very many do...but u cant blame this on the religion. Wen u conquer ur trishna, then u will be able to see the reality... whtever is written in the scriptures is not wrong...it is upto us to see tht perspective of life.

Get one thing in ur mind...UR religion..if u have any.. will not teach u to harm others..it will only teach u good things..IT IS UPTO YOU TO FOLLOW IT. This very thing applies to everyone...c u next time

Mr. Bulla.....

1) Regarding Sex Ratio:.....You yourself is saying that Sikhism philosphy says that respect women and talks of equality of women.
Now if the people are not following that, they are not true to sikhism. This is there fault not of sikhism.

What can be done is to teach the ignorant masses that it is sin. Saying that some people do this and that so Sikh religion is now Hindu religion is sheer stupidity.

Yes, I agree those people who do not believe in equality of sexes, kills girl foetus or do not treat well to ladies, they are not following Sikhism.

My question: where the hell this give us right to shorn our hairs and call ourself Hindu?

2) Regarding Common Sense: members can check here only that common sense is not so common. Some one start comparing religion with another religion. Someone talking that my religion is best and other guy is doing wrong then that religion is bad. Mayn....dat guy is doing wrong so he is wrong not the religion.

3) Religions are not failing. every religion is good. Every religion tells to do good deeds. if someone is failing to do the same, then those are people like you or me.

4) People now a days are not followong sikh pjilosphies. I agree some people have Sikh physical apperaence but they are not following it.
This does not give a right to any damn guy in this world to say that Particular religion is bad.
Saying that one religion is actually incomplete or part of other religion show the foolishness of that human being.

P.S-> Osama and thousand other Al-qaeda members had killed so many innocents. I say openly that they are killers and insane. But if I will say that Islam religion is bad then I am foolish.
Many people carried out 1984 riots, Godhra, Merrut and so many stuff. If I will start saying that Hindu religion is bad then I am stupid.